Yao Ming or Andrew Bynum … You make the call

Initiated an interesting exchange earlier today on a differnt web site … RaptorsTalk.com … regarding the relative value of these two specific players which warrants further analysis.

phdsteve … believes that Yao Ming is the best 7-footer in the world, and that Phil Jackson would choose Yao Ming over Andrew Bynum as the Center for his team.

khandor (that’s me) … believes that Phil Jackson would choose Andrew Bynum over Yao Ming as the Center for his team.

What do the rest of you in cyberspace think?

All votes submitted in the ‘Comments’ section of this thread over the next 7 days will be tabulated and reported in this space Thursday, August 7, 2008 … with a complete rationale explaining the perspective of this corner, as well as others who might choose to participate.

On your marks …

Get set …

and

Go!

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115 Responses to “Yao Ming or Andrew Bynum … You make the call”

  1. Arsenalist Says:

    I’ll go with Andrew Bynum. Younger, more athletic, higher ceiling and a tough attitude.

    Yao’s still good but there are elements of his game that reek of stiffness. Maybe if Yao was a little younger this would’ve been a more fair comparison but given Bynum’s age and potential upside, its a no-brainer. I think we all have a good idea of Yao’s ceiling but nobody knows how good Bynum can be.

  2. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    The only way anybody would say Andrew is better than Yao is because Yao is soft. Yao is soft because he’s chinese and Andrew is black. And because of that you can’t really compare the two. If Andrew and Yao went one on one I believe Andrew would win. I haven’t really seen the two compete when the Lakers play the Rockets but I bet you Andrew wins. This is because Yao Ming is Asian and softer. It’s like comparing Yao Ming with Amare Stoudemire. Amare is always going to be better because he’s black. So, its basically an unfair comparison unless Yao Ming becomes black. Arsenalist Andrew has a (more athletic, higher ceiling and a tough attitude) this is because Andrew is black and not Chinese.

    To answer your question. I believe Yao Ming is obivously better than Andrew Bynum in every single way possible. And I would rather have him on the Lakers than Andrew Bynum. Yao Ming has put up better numbers than Andrew. Yao Ming has made the all-star every year since his rookie season while Andrew hasn’t even made one yet.

    Yao Ming most importantly is a global star. This year the olympics are going to be held in China. And Yao Ming basically is going to be the biggest star in the world because hes the most famous chinese athlete there. And he’s going to represent China.

    Yao Ming because he’s asian attracts more media attention. More commericals than Andrew would ever have. LA has a big Asian population and the Lakers fan would go crazy if Yao was traded there. Yao is famous and I bet more people know who Yao is then Andrew. People that don’t know nothing about basketball probably know who Yao Ming is. People don’t know who Andrew Bynum is. Yao is also a very good basketball player and would put the Lakers over the top. With Kobe, Pau, Yao that would spell several championships.

    Yao’s career if it continues to be this good he will make the hall of fame some day. While Andrew doing that remains to be seen.

    Again I believe you can’t compare the two because of their race. It’s like comparing Kobe Bryant with Manu Ginobili. Who’s the better athlete Kobe is because he’s black. Who’s the better player Kobe is. But who’s team is always winning? Who wins the championships? Who wins the gold medals? Manu does.

  3. fluxland Says:

    Hi Khandor!

    Thanks for the invite. Glad to see you back in action on your cyber playground.

    This cat believes Jax would choose Andrew over Yao.

    I agree with what Arse in saying. I am not a qualified authoritative talent evaluator but it does seem Yao plays with cement shoes. When you look at him, you would expect the Dream type moves and fluidity, but all is see is robot type movement. Slow, intentional, non athletic, command type moves. You would also think of him as a defensive force but he doesn’t seem to be that.

    Andrew, from the little we have seen, would be the opposite of all that. My only concern is the extent of his last injury. The comeback timetable has been pushed back on multiple occasions and one has to wonder why.

    The biggest impression on me was made by their individual battles with Shaq. Yao when shown up, puts his head down, as if in shame, while running back up the floor, while Andrew is running back chest bumping the guy and getting confrontational. I’m believe Jax would prefer the warrior over the intimidated pacifist any day of the week.

    Just one dudes opinion.

  4. RaptorsFan Says:

    This is quite hard for me, but most likely I would select Bynum with the things are going, not only with him – but Yao.

    Bynum seems to be hitting a good streak until his latest injury that took him off for more than half a season, but compared that to Yao who can hardly manage to stay healthy for that long, I would choose Bynum. Yao is simply TOO injure prone, I cannot see him healthy for an entire season, if he can be – I would GLADLY pick up Yao than Bynum.

    I’m more of a stronger/more athletic, defensive C guy.

  5. Dave Says:

    For next season I’m rolling with Yao as the superior player. Bynum will pass him out in the future and would be the player I’d choose if it’s a long term choice.

    Firstly, we can’t make call Yao soft and not call Bynum out. That’s just wrong. Bynum is not tougher than Yao, if anything he’s softer. Bynum still struggles with overly physical players. If you have some old game tape around watch the Boston-Lakers regular season matchups and how Kendrick Perkins completely beat him up in the paint. Long term I think this will disappear as he gets more comfortable with his body and realizes how strong he actually is, but short term he’s definitely softer than Yao.

    The scoring is what truly separates them but I’ll leave that for a minute.

    Rebounding is interesting because Yao is a very underrated rebounder. I said on RaptorsTalk that Landry/Scola were the best at snaring rebounds but Yao is the best overall rebounder on the squad. His value is partially hidden. For example Bynum was fourth in the NBA in rebound rate and pulled down a very impressive 10.2rpg in 28.8mpg whereas Yao was 32nd in rebound rate and pulled down 10.8rpg in 37.2mp. Now where Yao’s value is hidden is team rebounding. Yao is a monster of a man at 7-6 300lbs. He takes up a lot of space (Rasho had similar virtues) in the paint, he boxes out well and it’s very difficult for the opposition to come in and steal offensive rebounds from him. Even if he doesn’t get the rebound himself one of his teammates will (Scola/Landry more effective because of Yao) because Yao is keeping the opposition off the glass mainly due to his huge size. The only other player nearly as big in the paint is Shaq. Bynum has similar traits but not to the level of impact as Yao. So overall I’d say Bynum is still the better rebounder but that gap is smaller than it looks.

    Bynum is a quality passer but Yao is superior. Bynum is a very intelligent center but again I’d say Yao is superior. Bynum’s athleticism gives him huge advantages especially on the break, offensive rebounding and just some plays (those high lob passes on screen and rolls) that most guys can’t make.

    Defense is interesting because of Yao’s weaknesses. He’s a guy who’s dependent on matchups defensively. For example he’s a lot more comfortable guarding Tim Duncan than he is defending Boozer or Okur. He struggles with perimeter bigs and quick bigs (lack of lateral quickness). If he’s playing against a post player then he’s allowed to stay around the rim and he can be an imposing defensive player. If he has to stay away from the rim he’s an atrocious defender. The swing factor is incredible and it’s one of Houston’s biggest weaknesses come playoff time. It puts extra pressure on Houston getting a friendly playoff draw.

    Bynum doesn’t have that type of weakness defensively but he’s also not a finished product on that end. He picks up sloppy fouls and his pick and roll coverage is poor – worse than Yao’s despite his athletic advantages – overall I’d rather have Bynum defensively but the difference isn’t that much (if Yao is around the rim defensively its no difference). The greatest area of improvement for Bynum throughout last season was on the defensive end and I picture him making great strides there next season so this is possibly a very different picture 82 games from now.

    I said earlier that scoring was the difference maker and it is. Yao is an excellent scorer and a go-to scorer. He was dropping 25ppg in only 33mpg in JVG’s last season. He has a dominant post game (10ppg in the paint) and a great face up jump shot out to about 18 feet (also a great FT shooter). He’s also a very efficient scorer with a TS% of 59% for his career. One of the biggest strengths of Yao’s scoring ability is how hard he is to stop. He is very difficult to limit one-on-one because of his size and strength (best defender on Yao? Kwame Brown. No joke), you have to throw a lot of help his way which opens up the game for all his teammates. So he’s consistent, efficient, versatile, and scores a great deal.

    This past season Rick Adelman has pulled him out of the paint too much for my liking. I think he has a far greater impact in the low post than the high post and it’s part of the reason why his scoring dropped. But it has opened up the floor more for his teammates so it’s not all bad, just bad for Yao’s scoring.

    Bynum on the other hand doesn’t create his own shot. He relies on his teammates (mostly Bryant and Fisher) to create it for him. As a starter he scored 15ppg in 31mpg so I’ll take that figure. He has some nice moves down on the block but confidence and comfort in those moves is still a work-in-progress. It’s important to state the reason because it’s not like he’s starting from scratch and has no post moves, he has good moves he just doesn’t have the confidence. That’ll come with more experience. The way he scored the 15ppg is most interesting because 80% of his shots were inside the paint and he scored almost 10ppg of his points in the paint. I love interior scorers so that has a huge weight for me, but Yao cancels that himself which brings us back to Bynum’s lower scoring and inability to create his own offense. There’s a very large difference in the scoring department and it favours Yao. A top defensive club like the Celtics can take Bynum’s scoring completely out of the game by putting the onus on the guys who create his shots … and they did exactly that in the regular season.

    So I’m rolling with Yao short term but Bynum would be my pick for medium-long term. Yao’s scoring ability is a huge separating factor.

  6. phdsteve Says:

    am I allowed to vote too? if so, Im obviously going with Yao. but just to clarify- whats the question is it:

    A) who is the better centre

    or

    B) who would Phil Jackson rather have at center?

    Id still vote Yao for either, but the discussion is already pretty juicy with some great points raised on both sides!

  7. khandor Says:

    phdsteve,

    You are defintely allowed to vote. :-)

    And, it’s both A & B. :-)

    [afterall, life's a complicated enterprise]

  8. Dave Says:

    For a Lakers perspective you definitely take Yao Ming (short term only).

    If they had Yao last season in the Finals they might have beaten the Celtics. I’d rather have Bynum than Gasol, but in the Lakers system and considering their second scoring option needs Gasol had greater value to the Lakers. If you replaced Gasol with Bynum, the Lakers would have been swept by Boston.

    Yao Ming has even greater value again. Unlike Gasol, Yao won’t become passive and turn away from the ball despite having a great chance of scoring – 15ppg, 53% shooting, 1.42 points per shot, Gasol scored on Perk or KG when he attacked them. Yao would have given Kobe that second scoring option he needed and he would have given them 22-26ppg. Yao also would have provided a lot more rebounding and more interior D. Like Gasol, he would have freed up Odom and possibly to a larger degree because of his own scoring abilities.

    That lack of a second scoring option is what killed the Lakers offensively in the Finals. Yao brings that to the table. Gasol has the skills to do that also but he shies away from the responsibility.

    A Yao-Bryant combination would be dominant.

    Of course the Celtics could win the series by playing KG as a center much like they Doc did at times against LA. I don’t trust Doc Rivers enough to make that play consistently against Yao though (I do trust someone like Nellie making that play). In the only meeting they had last season Doc kept Pollard (Pollard did very well on Yao) and Perkins on Yao until both fouled out, then was forced into KG at center and that matchup won the game for them – well Paul Pierce milking that matchup on pick and pops won that matchup for them to be more specific. KG just stood out of the way and made open shots that Pierce created for him while not looking to actually attack Yao one-on-one but alas the headlines screamed KG wins the game. Well done Paul.

  9. cuzzy Says:

    I have never been a fan of Yao. Sure he is good but I think he is only good cause he is giant. If he was 5 inches shorter would he even be in the league?

    Bynum is talented with huge upside and if this is all based on what Phil Jackson would do now, he would stick with Bynum.

    Yao is never going to be healthy again. He never has time off and his frame can’t take the wear and tear. He has the pressure of a whole nation on his shoulders and it holds him back I think.

    I am way too tired to write much more so please don’t hold my short answer against me.

  10. Yao or Bynum? « With Malice… Says:

    [...] Yao or Bynum? 31 07 2008 Interesting discussion going on over at Khandor’s Sports Blog:- who do you choose, Yao Ming or Andrew Bynum?  Or rather… who do you think Phil Jackson would choose?  Head over to Khandor’s Sports Blog and join in the discussion… [...]

  11. withmalice Says:

    It’s inane to say that it’s a short-term choice. If you’re playing fantasy basketball, sure.
    But that’s not what the discussion is. This is “who would Phil Jackson choose to play at the Lakers”… and the answer to that question is the guy he already has: Andrew Bynum.

    Yao’s got foot issues, and on big men, that’s hell. Add to this that he’s going to play in the Olympics (of course, he has to), and it adds up to being very unlikely that Yao plays the entire upcoming season. The last 3 years have been problematic for Yao… and honestly, I don’t see that changing. Yes, Bynum’s coming off knee surgery, but all indications are (thus far) that he’ll be fine. The Lakers have been very, very conservative on that, and rightly so. Yao doesn’t have that luxury with the Chinese National Team. I get the feeling that his leg could be nigh on ripped off, and they’d expect him to play.

    Age and state of their game are important too. Everything perfect, then Yao’s better than Bynum. Clearly so. But Yao’s game’s at it’s zenith… Bynum’s just starting to show who he’ll be. And the potential (yes, at this point that’s what it is) could be pretty damn good. Sure, Yao’s only 27, but there are a helluva lot of miles on that 27. Having the weight of the world’s biggest nation on your shoulders is huge. And whilst the expectation isn’t going to physically effect him, the games Yao has to play because of that expectation will. He’s coming off a season plagued with injury and surgery, yet there was never a question as to whether he’d play in the Olympics.

    The actual team situation is important too: which of the players would best benefit having Phi-Jax as coach, and having Kareem Abdul Jabbar as a personal centers coach (on that, would LA even use Jabbar in that role if Yao were there?) – clearly, again, that’s a situation that will benefit Bynum over Yao. Bynum’s a clean slate, and we’re only now beginning to see the clay being molded.

    Twinkletoes Sugarberry – I don’t think it’s fair to state that it’s racism. Because whether the word itself is used, that’s what you’re saying. And stating that “people automatically state that Yao’s soft because he’s Asian… people automatically state that Bynum’s soft because he’s black” is a gross assumption.
    And incorrect. I’ve not seen Yao described as ‘soft’ in recent years… nor have I seen Bynum being praised as ‘tough’. And in regards to your point about ‘better numbers’, Bynum is 20 years old.

    Dave – impossible to say:

    If you replaced Gasol with Bynum, the Lakers would have been swept by Boston.

    Not the way it works. 1 – It’s gone, done ‘n’ dusted, history – we’ll never know. 2 – Even entertaining the concept, it’s not a simple insertion of Bynum-for-Gasol. Bynum back in the team has a huge impact on the entire line-up. It means that now you have Gasol at the 4. Odom moves to the 3 slot, or comes off the bench to strengthen the second unit. There’s less pressure on Kobe because the line-up is that much stronger.
    Comparing how the Celtics did against Houston as a comparison to how they’d do against Yao in purple/gold doesn’t work either – as it’s Houston, and as good as T-Mac is, he isn’t Kobe Bryant. Fails to acknowledge the rest of the unit – which is much stronger than Houston (tho’ the recent signing of Artest has made the gap much, much smaller – but that’s another story…).

    Good discussion point Khandor… well done.

  12. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    Withmalice its racist but its true. Yao is soft because he’s chinese. He’s a heck of a player but he’s still a chinese player. And a chinese player compared to a black basketball player is very different. I don’t know Bynum’s reputation as a tough player or not. But I bet one on one Bynum wins because hes black.

    I don’t know if you Bynum supporters are all Laker fans or not but who wouldn’t trade Bynum for Yao Ming right now? I think you guys are crazy if you reject that offer. And don’t let Yao’s olympics playing be a negative for Yao Ming. Yao Ming is the star of the world when this years olympics start. He is the pride of China. Everybody will know his name if they don’t already. While Bynum isn’t even on the olympic roster. Yao Ming gets the media attention. With his many commericals and advertisements and shoe deals. Yao Ming is a global star. The most famous people from the NBA are Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, and Yao is right there with them. These are the guys that normal people know who have never watched basketball. Yao Ming is also Chinese and that attracts the many Asian population to watch the Lakers. That alone is the reason why Phil Jackson should choose Yao Ming. I also believe Andrew Bynum would not be so highly regarded if he was on the Knicks team or the Grizzlies but instead he’s so regarded because he’s Shaq’s air apparent on the purple and gold.

    You also say Bynum is better because Kareem Abdul Jabbar is his special coach. Well, I believe that if Yao Ming was on the Lakers Kareem would teach him too. But I also disregard Kareem as a wonderful teacher. I believe he taught Michael Olowokandi before Bynum and look how he turned out.

  13. fouledout Says:

    i choose andrew bynum..
    * he is still young and has a lot of potential. sure yao ming is the better player between the two, but he is old and he gets injured every season. his durability is in question. bynum may also be a fragile player, we don’t know, but i’m willing to gamble on him because of his great potentials..

  14. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    Cuzzy- I have never been a fan of Yao. Sure he is good but I think he is only good cause he is giant. If he was 5 inches shorter would he even be in the league? This is a bad point. This was what everybody was saying a few years back when Yao Ming first came into the league. The dudes 7’6 but can he play? Yao Ming can definitely play the game of basketball regardless of his height. Just look at his numbers. Yao’s an all-star future hall of famer. Of course being 7’6 doesn’t hurt. You can’t say Bynum being 7’0 that he isn’t a giant himself?

  15. Dave Says:

    “Not the way it works. 1 – It’s gone, done ‘n’ dusted, history – we’ll never know. 2 – Even entertaining the concept, it’s not a simple insertion of Bynum-for-Gasol.”

    The Lakers played the Celtics twice with Bynum in the regular season prior to acquiring Gasol. They were dominated twice, the Celtics had 20 point leads in the third quarters of both games. The Celtics defense tore apart the Lakers offense because they had no scorer who was helping Kobe, which allowed Boston to hone in on Bryant. They trashed them, they demolished them. The Celtics defense lives for an offense like that. They did the same thing to Tracy and the Rockets (Yao injured for their second meeting) and several others.

    Maybe you misunderstood me because later on you say Gasol moves to PF if Bynum is there. I said Bynum instead of Gasol, so Bynum is in the lineup and Gasol isn’t. With Bynum back next season alongside Gasol they’ll be much improved and those two should be a tremendous pairing.

    The reason I brought up Bynum instead of Gasol was to highlight the advantages of Yao’s scoring and how much he could add to the Lakers. That even though Bynum is a better defender and rebounder, Gasol has more value to the Lakers because of his offensive talent (also seen by the Lakers superior record with Gasol as against with Bynum) … and from there Yao has more value than Gasol because he’s a far superior scorer and overall offensive player. Also a better defender and rebounder.

    “It’s inane to say that it’s a short-term choice. If you’re playing fantasy basketball, sure.
    But that’s not what the discussion is. This is “who would Phil Jackson choose to play at the Lakers””

    By short term I meant if you had the player for one season who would you take? I’d take Yao.

    To build a team around for several years I take Bynum because he’s very young, has more years to go on his career, and will be better than Yao at some point. That point is very unlikely to be next season.

    As for short term long term …. It’s the same as Duncan or Oden. Duncan is clearly the better player but Oden is the guy you take in a trade (or long term) because he’s only starting out and will have an excellent career. To rattle on, I wouldn’t trade Oden for Duncan and I wouldn’t trade Bynum for Yao. That doesn’t mean Yao is a worse player than Bynum anymore than it means Duncan is a worse player than Oden. He’s (Yao/Duncan) a better player and offers more to any team at this moment in time.

    On Yao’s health

    As for Yao’s injuries I fully agree that he’s likely going to suffer a short career. He’s too big and as he slows down physically it’ll be difficult for him to continue at a high level. I’d also say he is a bit injury prone recently but in each of the last three seasons each of his injuries have been very different and two have been quite unlucky … so I still believe he can play injury free for another while yet, especially since he played his first three years without injury. If he gets injured again next season I might have to change my mind about that!

    Plus then you have Bynum and his 35 games last season and how his body has healed very slowly following his knee injury. He should have been back months ago. For next season is he any less of an injury risk? How much? Enough to separate the two? Yao has actually done more to prove his recovery from injury and is coming off a less serious injury.

  16. Raps Fan Says:

    i have a two part answer, now and later…

    NOW:
    as far as the better center, right now, i would have to say yao. he is much more prolific scorer then bynum, and a better passer out of the low post. defensively i would give bynum the nod from what i have seen out of the two. as dave so perfectly said, on the boards, yao is a beast, and creates opportunities for his teammates to snag boards.

    as far as who phil would want, strangely enough, i think it’s bynum. imho, and from i have seen over the last 20 years, the triangle offense doesn’t need a center who can step out and hit the jumper. the bulls of the 90’s played center by committee (longly, wennington, cartwright) with great results. they would bang in the blocks, and create space for jordan/pippen/paxson/kerr to do their thing on the perimeter. the lakers of 2000 had shaq, who held the paint, allowing for kobe/horry/fox/fisher to do their thing on the perimeter.

    LATER:
    I have to go with bynum. the guy is still young, and with kareems tutelage, he will be a monster. yao’s health issues are only gonna get worse.

  17. khandor Says:

    Tremendous stuff, thus far, folks … keep it coming, and feel free to spread the word. :-)

    [I'll do my best to peace-make, if necessary ... keep any discussion on-point ... keep everyone up-to-date ... but not offer my own perspective until Thursday, August 7, 2008, as outlined in the original post]

  18. withmalice Says:

    @ Twinkletoes Sugarberry…

    its racist but its true

    Ummmm… no, it’s not. Honestly? I thought you were joking… such an inane statement cannot be treated as anything but. Sheesh man, I gave you more credit than that…

    I don’t know if you Bynum supporters are all Laker fans or not but who wouldn’t trade Bynum for Yao Ming right now? I think you guys are crazy if you reject that offer.

    I’m a Lakers fan, and no way in hell would I make that trade. Insanity. Trade a 20 year old guy who’s coming off knee surgery for a 27 year old with a history of foot issues? Umm… not in this universe.

    And don’t let Yao’s olympics playing be a negative for Yao Ming. Yao Ming is the star of the world when this years olympics start. He is the pride of China. Everybody will know his name if they don’t already. While Bynum isn’t even on the olympic roster. Yao Ming gets the media attention. With his many commericals and advertisements and shoe deals. Yao Ming is a global star.

    You’re trying to assert that because he’s famous that over-rides the injury concerns that an injury-plagued big man who plays too much has? That’s… a surprising assertion.
    And on fame…
    This is the LAKERS we’re discussing, they already have Kobe, and they’re The Lakers. Their mere existence is more fame than any other team in the league… period.

    The most famous people from the NBA are Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, and Yao is right there with them.

    No, he isn’t. Unless you’re saying ‘in China’…

    The reason Jabbar’s coaching there is that he was specifically brought in to work with Bynum, who was 17 when he joined the Lakers. Yao’s now 27. Same impact of coaching… err… hell no.

    @ Dave…

    I said Bynum instead of Gasol, so Bynum is in the lineup and Gasol isn’t.

    Err… but if Bynum were in the line-up, there’d be no reason that Gasol wouldn’t be. Not sure I follow your line of reasoning.

    By short term I meant if you had the player for one season who would you take? I’d take Yao.

    To build a team around for several years I take Bynum

    Then I think you missed the point of discussion. It’s

    phdsteve … believes that Yao Ming is the best 7-footer in the world, and that Phil Jackson would choose Yao Ming over Andrew Bynum as the Center for his team.

    khandor (that’s me) … believes that Phil Jackson would choose Andrew Bynum over Yao Ming as the Center for his team.

    Moot point then, in this argument, you take Andrew Bynum.

    For next season is he any less of an injury risk? How much? Enough to separate the two? Yao has actually done more to prove his recovery from injury and is coming off a less serious injury.

    Much, much less so. a) he’s 20 years old… b) he’s been able to have a far more conservative recovery than Yao… c) there’s no continuous history of injuries to Bynum… d) For you or I, perhaps ‘knee surgery’ is more problematic than ‘stress fractures in a foot’, but for men of this size, the stress fracture’s far more troubling. Especially with Yao’s history of injury woes. At this point in time, it’s not even realistic to call them ‘injury issues’. They have become ‘health concerns’.

    In the past 3 years, every year Yao has missed significant time due to injuries. And with coming off yet another bout of surgery, Yao’s pretty much forced to play in the Olympics. Perhaps forced isn’t the right term, Yao never had a choice.

  19. FeetinthePaint Says:

    Twinkletoes:

    Don’t even get me started with that bullshit. Your statement that Bynum is tougher than Yao is as asinine as your statement that he’s tougher because he’s black and conversely Yao’s soft because he’s Chinese. And jesus, black Kobe – better athlete, white Manu – winner? Jesus christ, I would be glad to talk to you about the basics of cultural assumptions, sociology and common sense. My e-mail is feetinthepaint[at]gmail[dot]com.

    Regarding the Bynum-Yao topic:

    I take Yao. The allure of youth is all too tempting in a society where youth is a commodity in itself. It seems like the thought is “wow, imagine how good Bynum is going to be in 5 years.”

    Any Mighty Ducks fans in the house? Remember how Emilio kept going on and on about how his shot was 1/4 inch from winning his team the championship? Then how Charlie Conway pointed out that it could have also been 1/4 inch from missing the goal completely?

    That’s kind of how I view someone who’s thrown up 13 and 10 in 30 games. It’s nice but what does it really do for me? People were saying he had the court sense of a baby before last year’s increase of productivity. So I say the burden of proof is on Bynum. Yao’s made his case and he’s pretty damn good.

  20. Dave Says:

    The Bynum instead of Gasol discussion was to draw attention to how the strengths of Yao Ming provide far more to the team than Bynum’s strengths.

    The Lakers were a better basketball team with Gasol because of his offensive ability and specifically his ability to provide Bryant with a second scoring option.

    Going back to the beginning – I said that the Lakers were a worse team with Bynum (25-11) than they were with Gasol (22-4). I drew an example between the Lakers Finals appearance against Boston versus their regular season struggles against the Celtics. It’s interesting because one has Bynum and one has Gasol. The added firepower that Gasol offered was more important than Bynum’s defense and rebounding because the team desperately needed that second option offensively to compete.

    So Gasol had a greater value than Bynum on last year’s squad.

    Which brings us back to Yao Ming. Yao is a far superior player to Gasol who provides a better scoring option than Gasol (Yao never would have shied away from scoring duties in the Finals). Yao also provides more defense and more rebounding. The Lakers would have been a better team last year with Yao Ming than Gasol.

    The point of this line of thinking was to show how much Yao’s superior scoring skills would have added to the Lakers lineup.

  21. Dave Says:

    Yao’s injuries

    (1) Osteomyelitis in the big toe on his left foot (infection – full recovery)
    (2) Broke his right knee (full recovery) – happened by banging knees
    (3) Stress Fracture left foot – stepped on someone else’s foot

    The last two injuries have a good chunk of bad luck in them. Could have happened to anyone.

    Before that first injury Yao had played in 266 of 268 games.

    Yao is already back on the court and he looks great. I’ll wait a while before saying it’s a full recovery. A stress fracture in one’s foot isn’t a serious injury.

  22. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    FeetinthePaint- Yao Ming is soft because he’s chinese thats the fact. That is why Yao Ming will never be like Shaq. Because Chinese people are gentlemen like. And they do not show the same agression as black or white people do. Theres a huge reason why the NBA doesn’t have much Chinese basketball players. Chinese people are physically not born to play basketball. Chinese people are born to skinny and short. And the reason why Yao Ming made the NBA is because he’s a freak of nature at 7’6. Is it racist to say black people are better at sports than other races? It’s freaking true. So lets admit it. This is why Chinese people dominate gentle olympic stuff like diving and ping pong. And I’m not some white racist. This is coming from a full blooded Chink.

    Also, that Manu thing. It’s true. Why is Manu always being ranked lower than guys like Kobe Bryant and Vince Carter. And this was before this great Laker season Kobe had. And Vince has done nothing yet some people rank him higher than Manu. When Manu has won a gold medal and 3 championships.

    withmalice- ( I’m a Lakers fan, and no way in hell would I make that trade. Insanity. Trade a 20 year old guy who’s coming off knee surgery for a 27 year old with a history of foot issues? Umm… not in this universe.)
    Yao Ming does have knee problems I agree. But lets see when both Bynum and Yao’s careers are done and who is in the hall of fame? Yao Ming is better than Andrew Bynum. Your talking like a Laker fan now. Take a lesson from the Boston Celtics the 08-09 NBA champs. You don’t win on future and potential. You win now. If the Boston Celtics thought like you then they wouldn’t have ever traded a younger Al Jefferson waste their future for a older Kevin Garnett. No way in hell the Rockets ever trade Yao Ming. But if you actually turn that down then your insane.

    (You’re trying to assert that because he’s famous that over-rides the injury concerns that an injury-plagued big man who plays too much has? That’s… a surprising assertion.
    And on fame…
    This is the LAKERS we’re discussing, they already have Kobe, and they’re The Lakers. Their mere existence is more fame than any other team in the league… period.)
    Normal people not basketball fans don’t know who Andrew Bynum is. But I bet you they know who Yao Ming is. Yao’s in celebrity status along with Kobe, Shaq and Lebron. What has Andrew Bynum done? Are you telling me that the Lakers wouldn’t want to market off Yao Ming and his Chinese base. Do you know how many people are in China? The Lakers would be crazy not to do this.

    (The reason Jabbar’s coaching there is that he was specifically brought in to work with Bynum, who was 17 when he joined the Lakers. Yao’s now 27. Same impact of coaching… err… hell no.)
    I’ve never said Yao would have the same impact of coaching from Kareem at that age. I said because Kareem is coaching Andrew doesn’t mean Andrew is better than Yao. It’s just coaching. Yao Ming was coached by Hakeem Olajuwon and Patrick Ewing. So what? That’s two hall of fame centers against one. So is Yao better now? I believe Kareem coached the Kandi Man so I wouldn’t say he’s that great.

    (And with coming off yet another bout of surgery, Yao’s pretty much forced to play in the Olympics. Perhaps forced isn’t the right term, Yao never had a choice.) This is another point I would like to make when you compare Yao Ming with other people. Yao Ming is chinese. He’s from a communist country. His whole background is different from Andrew. I would like to see Andrew Bynum have communist looking over his back controlling his every move. I believe after Yao Ming got married he delayed his honeymoon to prepare for the olympics.

  23. Blake Murphy Says:

    The difficulty for me here is durability – is Bynum’s injury a sign of things to come, or a solitary injury? Yao is hurt consistently, and that would be Bynum’s biggest advantage in my mind. Even then, Bynum is far younger, is much stronger in the post (with a higher rebounding upside), and has already improved more year-to-year than we’d expect to see from Yao. While I respect Yao as a player and a center, I think Bynum fits the bill as a prototypical (and reliable) center more moving into the future.

  24. withmalice Says:

    Kind of blown away a lil’ by some of the arguments presented.
    1. It’s not a case of “Andrew Bynum, or Pau Gasol, or Yao Ming.” The discussion is (I’m assuming) which center would Phil Jackson prefer for the Lakers. That’s it. Unless I’ve really missed something somewhere.

    2. Additionally, the discussion isn’t about how LA would’ve done with Yao last year. Entirely irrelevant. We’re talking about now.

    3. When Andrew Bynum went down injured, the Lakers were still one of the better teams in the West. And continued to win sans Bynum/Gasol… they weren’t even a team competing for the 8th spot or so… they were doing pretty well.

    4. Twinkletoes Sugarberry – you’re a teenager, right? Have you ever been to Asia? I live there. Went to the beach with family and friends today, one of them is a guy that perhaps you should run that line of thought by. He’d eat you alive. Whatever your nationality.
    This:

    Yao Ming is soft because he’s chinese thats the fact. That is why Yao Ming will never be like Shaq. Because Chinese people are gentlemen like. And they do not show the same agression as black or white people do. Theres a huge reason why the NBA doesn’t have much Chinese basketball players. Chinese people are physically not born to play basketball. Chinese people are born to skinny and short. And the reason why Yao Ming made the NBA is because he’s a freak of nature at 7′6. Is it racist to say black people are better at sports than other races? It’s freaking true. So lets admit it. This is why Chinese people dominate gentle olympic stuff like diving and ping pong. And I’m not some white racist. This is coming from a full blooded Chink.

    is one of the most insanely stupid things I’ve read in a very, very long time. Even the fact that you feel comfortable with using the word ‘chink’ to describe yourself is obscene.

    5. On Manu, it’s because he’s not as good as Kobe. It’s just that simple. Race? Umm… no. Hi there Larry.

    Yao Ming does have knee problems I agree. But lets see when both Bynum and Yao’s careers are done and who is in the hall of fame? Yao Ming is better than Andrew Bynum. Your talking like a Laker fan now. Take a lesson from the Boston Celtics the 08-09 NBA champs. You don’t win on future and potential. You win now. If the Boston Celtics thought like you then they wouldn’t have ever traded a younger Al Jefferson waste their future for a older Kevin Garnett. No way in hell the Rockets ever trade Yao Ming. But if you actually turn that down then your insane.

    No. Yao Ming has a history of lower extremity problems. Not just knee, but toe, and foot problems as well.
    And now you want to give me lessons? Please… making comparisons between the 06/07 Celtics and the Lakers is ridiculous. Entirely different situations. The Lakers are the 2nd best team in the league, and Mitch Kupchak is quite solid within his current employment situation. If it’s all based upon who’s going to be in the HoF, well hell… let’s get Jabbar suited up now! Where’s Wilt? Oh sheesh… he died.

    6. You would make a trade based on the fact that there are heaps of people in China? Get a grip… as I said before – this is The Lakers. Capital T on the ‘the’ please.
    Because Yao’s a celebrity?
    Again, I retort, so?…

    7. Lastly, what Blake said.

  25. Julien Says:

    It’s hard to say given that Bynum is still a developing player. Plus, he was plagued by injuries last year. It’s obvious he hasn’t reached his full potential yet, but I think it’s gonna come. I hope for L.A. he’ll have a breakout season next year.
    So right now, I’d say Yao is way better than Bynum…but in a couple of years I think Bynum’s game will have improved by leaps and bounds and ultimately he’ll overpower Yao.

  26. fluxland Says:

    As Don pointed out… it’s simply amazing how many people are missing the question that was asked. Comprehension skills are very very low.

    And that twinklec**t b***h … you ignorant f**k.. do the world a favor: crawl into a cave and die.

    Don.. give it up … the man is beyond help.

  27. withmalice Says:

    Semi-related issue… interesting to see the minor issues brewing between Yao & Artest…

    ========================

    [khandor's edit: Don, assume you're talking about these related stories, right here ...

    http://hardwoodparoxysm.blogspot.com/2008/07/oh-its-already-gold-gooey-snake-eggy.html

    http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/sports/kings/archives/014222.html

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/5915375.html

    If so, yes indeed, Mr. Artest's tenure with the Rockets should prove to be most interesting.

    Now ... back to our regular programming. :-) ]

  28. withmalice Says:

    Actually… no. Was referring to the original – this ESPN one.

    Lovely quote here:

    “If you go back to the brawl, that’s a culture issue right there,” Artest added, according to the report. “Somebody was disrespecting me, so he’s got to understand where I’m coming from. People that know me know that Ron Artest never changed.”

  29. khandor Says:

    Don,

    Are you sure the ESPN one is ‘the original’?

    Look closely … as it seems as though the bottom two links (of the three I provided above) may in fact be directly from the two original sources themselves and therefore contain that exact quote, in addition to all others.

  30. Ryan Says:

    I’m going with Bynum… as long as he’s healthy. I think the kid showed a lot of potential last season and with the change in the way the game is playing (moving away from half court sets into a more uptempo/free flowing offense) Bynum is a better fit. Plus, Yao’s had a hard time staying healthy. If, and this is a big if, Bynum’s injury last season was an abberation I would select him. If both players prove to be injury prone I’d take Yao.

  31. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    A) who is the better centre. YAO MING.
    or

    B) who would Phil Jackson rather have at center? YAO MING.

    Withmalice- ( Twinkletoes Sugarberry – you’re a teenager, right? Have you ever been to Asia? I live there. Went to the beach with family and friends today, one of them is a guy that perhaps you should run that line of thought by. He’d eat you alive. Whatever your nationality.)
    If you live in Asia right now then I’m guessing your Chinese? Is Yao Ming popular there or not?

    He’d eat you alive.
    What’s this got to do with the discussion? Stay on topic. Don’t start with personal attacks. You ask me if I’m a teenage or not. What’s that all about?

    Even the fact that you feel comfortable with using the word ‘chink’ to describe yourself is obscene. If you live in Asian. I except you to be Asian. So if your Chinese why don’t you not use the word?

    (You would make a trade based on the fact that there are heaps of people in China? Get a grip… as I said before – this is The Lakers. Capital T on the ‘the’ please.
    Because Yao’s a celebrity?
    Again, I retort, so?…)
    Remember the NBA is a business. This is why there was some many rumors of Golden State a year ago trying to get Yi Jianlian. This is also why Yi Jianlian was traded to New Jersey. Because they have a bigger chinese population than Milwaukee. There is a lot of Chinese people in Southern California. It would be a smart move for the Lakers to get a Chinese star like Yao Ming to make money. Why did the Lakers draft Sue Yue again? Why did the Clippers sign Wang Zhizhi a few years back? Look at Pau Gasol thats a good market move because he’s Spanish. And this will make Mexican Americans watch the Lakers more. Also do people that never watch basketball even know who the Lakers are?

    Larry Bird once made this same point. That most basketball viewers are white Americans. And white Americans would like to see a white basketball player like themselves play basketball. This is why Adam Morrison was so highly regarded. Why every white player that has a jump shoot is considered the next Larry Bird.

    I find it funny that the Lakers wouldn’t trade Bynum for a star like Yao Ming now. When only two years ago the Lakers were about to trade Bynum for old Jason Kidd.

    Basketball is a black man’s game. Is that not true? Why is there only 2 Chinese players in the NBA? Why is there only 1 Mexican player in the NBA? Someone be brave enough to answer that question?

    Mitch Kupchak is quite solid within his current employment situation. If it’s all based upon who’s going to be in the HoF, well hell… let’s get Jabbar suited up now! Where’s Wilt? Oh sheesh… he died.
    Look if I said Yao is going to make the hall of fame then I’m saying he’s the better player. Yao is in the same line as Wilt, Kareem, Shaq. Yao is going to go down in history no matter what. Even if Yao started to play bad from now on. He would still be in the hall of fame. If Yao died today he will forever be remembered. I wouldn’t say the same with Bynum?

    All of you guys keep saying the reason you wouldn’t pick Yao is because of his injures. Remember Bynum was injured too. And look at Yao earning his millions by playing on the olympics for his country. And what is Bynum doing again?

  32. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    *Even the fact that you feel comfortable with using the word ‘chink’ to describe yourself is obscene.
    If you live in Asia. I except you to be Asian. So if your Chinese why don’t you use the word?

    * Jump Shot

  33. mao Says:

    I’d take Yao myself, as he’s a known commodity. But if I’m Phil Jackson and coaching the Lakers, I probably would take Bynum. He’s super young, he’s going to be hungry after missing a chance to play in the Finals and prove his worth against Garnett and company, and he’s not as slow as Yao.

  34. Dowjones Says:

    Definitely Yao,

    Bynum has shown flashes and his only extended period of success has been 35 games last year before he went down. How do you know he won’t regress once he gets his extension, if he does. Yao, on the other hand, has shown that he can put up 20/10 consistently and has gotten better every season under jvg and the only reason he didn’t last season was because adelman completely changed his role in the offense, like dave said, high post instead of predominately on the block. Also like dave said, before the last three season, Yao’s ONLY MISSED TWO TOTAL GAMES

  35. Dowjones Says:

    and of the injuries he suffered, two were freak accidents, yes people are gonna worry about Yao becoming the next bill walton, but so far the returns from the olympic warmups indicate that he has recovered fully. Also, his doctors from both the rockets and the chinese national team approved of his participation. Yeah the chinese team docs could’ve fudged it but do you think the rocket docs would’ve????

    Lastly, on the topic of straight up trade of bynum for Yao, the lakers would be IDIOTS for turning it down. The trade would be on a magnitude GREATER than the trade of Big Al for KG. Yao knows how to play D, he anchored that suffocating rocket D for godsakes!! Furthermore, he’s a better pick-and-row defender than shaq….also for those of you arguing yao can’t dunk/alley-oop/do the plays that bynum does with kobe penetration, i’ve got one question for ya, have you ever seen those sick Francis to Yao alley-oops from four seasons ago??? Yao is about one of the only players who can beat Dwight Howard in a 1 on 1 matchup and you’re saying you wouldn’t trade bynum for superman???

    Anyhow trade for yao and lakers will threepeat, like shaq, buss will give yao the first third of the season off and then the lakers own everyone during the playoffs. Oh yeah….if the Chinese market doesn’t matter and Buss won’t gain a lot more dough from trading for yao, how do you think everyone started paying attention to houston rockets, casual fans anyways, after yao got drafted?

  36. Robin Says:

    I just have a few points to make.
    Bynum posted his stats last season against mostly bench players (even though he was starting, he was playing with the bench rotation) – Hilton Armstrongs of the league. While his talent level is there, you just can’t predict how well it’s going to translate when he’s given a larger role on the team than a finisher. But perhaps that’s what the Lakers need – an athletic big man who can rebound, play defense, and finish strong. The Laker’s triangle offense with Gasol/Odom has enough offense and playmaking ability. Bynum seems to be the perfect compliment – snatching down offensive rebounds and hitting the hook shot while anchoring the defense. Yao may be able to do all those things, but Bynum just meshes so well with the Lakers – he seems like a hustle player with AllStar talent. Yao and Gasol on the same team just seems redundant, although I do salivate at the thought of two foreign bigmen with above average passing ability shooting hook shots all day.

    So far, Bynum has had difficulties against Yao and Howard. I’m drawing from a small sample size, but watch Bynum in any game and you’ll see that most of the time he can dominate smaller guys, but has a bit more trouble with players who can match up with him. I’m sure he’ll develop and become a much better player though

  37. I ride toys Says:

    Bynum over Yao for Mr.Jackson. Bynum has way more potential, is more athlectic and more beast. Bynum would break Yao’s back while snacthing up boards then take it coast to coast (if Kobe let him)for the soft lay in or (Kobe’s choice)hit Kobe up on the wing for 3. Bynum

  38. withmalice Says:

    1. Khandor… doesn’t really matter at all.

    2. Again – a note: THIS ISN’T A DISCUSSION ABOUT TRADING YAO FOR BYNUM, THIS IS A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHO PHIL JACKSON WOULD PREFER. Sheesh… I know that it’s splitting hairs, but it’s not the point at hand.
    Comparisons to the Boston/KG trade are absolutely irrelevant!

    3. I’m living in Asia… and you immediately assume that I’m Chinese?
    Sheesh man… you really, really need to get a grip.
    Me stay on topic??? Talk about hypocrisy! I’m asking about your age due to the fact that you’re tending to make some quantum leaps in logic, and feel totally comfortable in a) making some fairly gross racist comments, and b) using derogatory names for different races.

    4. Umm… I’m fully aware of what the NBA is. I’m not entirely sure you are.
    As I pointed out – several times now – the Lakers are the pre-eminent franchise in the NBA, they have a level of fame that surpasses any one player. In the history of the game, I’d suggest that there’s only one player who’s fame outweighs that of the Lakers.
    Big tip: it’s not Yao Ming.

    Why did the Lakers draft Sue Yue again?

    I’m sure that’s a question the Lakers ask themselves frequently.

    I find it funny that the Lakers wouldn’t trade Bynum for a star like Yao Ming now. When only two years ago the Lakers were about to trade Bynum for old Jason Kidd.

    Ummm… no. They didn’t. That was the sticking point. The Nets wanted Bynum, and the Lakers said no. Even for Kidd.
    Tsk, tsk… you should get your facts straight.

    5. And…

    Basketball is a black man’s game.

    Wow… you are truly… amazing. Check this out. In one breath you can declare Manu to be as good as Kobe, and state that

    Yao is in the same line as Wilt, Kareem,

    Shaq.

    Then say “basketball is a black man’s game”… are you aware of the contradictions you present?
    And Yao’s up there with Wilt, Kareem & Shaq? Please… it’s not even close.

    6. Several posters have discussed injuries. Twinkie points out that Bynum was injured too… Dave discusses that a foot stress fracture isn’t that serious… that he appears to have recovered… Dowjones points out that Houston wouldn’t have let him play…
    Yes, Bynum was injured – but as mentioned before, he’s 7 years younger than Yao. He doesn’t have a history of injuries…
    Dave, a stress fracture in a guy of Yao’s size isn’t a particularly bad injury of itself, but it’s a stress fracture. How do you think it occurred? Repeated stress on a particular bone – and has a very good chance of recurrence. There has to be concern when the last 3 seasons Yao has missed significant stretches with lower leg injuries. Three seasons??? You don’t see a pattern?
    Houston wouldn’t let him play? Houston doesn’t have a say in the matter.
    Neither does Yao.

    (note: I love a good sports argument – enjoying myself immensely! Don’t get too offended by my brusqueness – just my… *ahem*… ‘style’)

  39. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    (I’m living in Asia… and you immediately assume that I’m Chinese?
    Sheesh man… you really, really need to get a grip.
    Me stay on topic??? Talk about hypocrisy! I’m asking about your age due to the fact that you’re tending to make some quantum leaps in logic, and feel totally comfortable in a) making some fairly gross racist comments, and b) using derogatory names for different races.)
    (Even the fact that you feel comfortable with using the word ‘chink’ to describe yourself is obscene.)
    -If your not Chinese then why are you questioning me using the word. If your not Chinese then why do you even care? You have no right to question me. If your not Chinese yourself. So I assumed the only reason you would question me is that your Chinese. How should I know that your Japanese unless you straight tell me. And if you are Japanese why do you not support Yao Ming? Do you got something against Chinese people? This is assuming your Japanese at all because I pressed onto your website. Maybe your Indian or something?

    Umm… I’m fully aware of what the NBA is. I’m not entirely sure you are.
    As I pointed out – several times now – the Lakers are the pre-eminent franchise in the NBA, they have a level of fame that surpasses any one player. In the history of the game, I’d suggest that there’s only one player who’s fame outweighs that of the Lakers.
    Big tip: it’s not Yao Ming.
    Your point makes no sense. The Lakers are a famous franchise great. So what? If you live in Asia are you telling that Yao Ming isn’t famous there? That’s something you should answer.

    Why did the Lakers draft Sue Yue again?
    This is obvious. Sue Yue sucks at playing basketball. But he’s Chinese. And LA has many chinese people which is why the Lakers drafted him. Which is also why Yao Ming getting traded there would be great for the Lakers. Business wise.

    Basketball is a black man’s game. I never said anything about white people. (Basketball is a black man’s game. Is that not true? Why is there only 2 Chinese players in the NBA? Why is there only 1 Mexican player in the NBA? Someone be brave enough to answer that question?) Black people dominate basketball. White people are also good at basketball. But how many Chinese people are in the NBA? How many Mexican people? Answer me why this is? Its racist but its true.

    Ummm… no. They didn’t. That was the sticking point. The Nets wanted Bynum, and the Lakers said no. Even for Kidd.
    Tsk, tsk… you should get your facts straight.
    I wrote WERE ABOUT. Not that they did it. And actually it was very close to happening.

    (In one breath you can declare Manu to be as good as Kobe, and state that). I’m still saying Manu is as good as Kobe. Kobe’s got 3 championships.
    -Manu’s got 3 championships. Manu has a gold medal. Kobe’s got 3 championships. But does Kobe have a gold medal yet? And Manu won his gold medal the same year he won the NBA championship. Kobe? He lost to the Celtics.

    (Yao is in the same line as Wilt, Kareem, Shaq.) This is true still. Yao is the next great center after Shaq. Plus he’s Chinese and a really good basketball which automatically puts him in the hall of fame? If you think Yao isn’t in the same line then are saying Bynum is?

    Me stay on topic??? You threatened my life. (Went to the beach with family and friends today, one of them is a guy that perhaps you should run that line of thought by. He’d EAT you alive. Whatever your nationality.) This was a simple basketball post about centers and you threatened my life.

  40. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    *player

  41. Dave Says:

    Anyway, rolling back to the Bynum-Gasol-Yao point I made earlier because I don’t think it was understood …. the point was to highlight some of the advantages Gasol had over Bynum and how they helped the Lakers be a better team. Those advantages Gasol has (chiefly as a scoring option) are also held by Yao Ming and to a greater effect. The point of the example was to show that Yao’s strengths are more important to the Lakers success than Bynum’s strengths. That is why I am talking about last season instead of this season because it highlights the differences in their games better and shows by Yao is the better option.

    ____________________

    Anyway, you’d like to talk about next season.

    The main points from the last example still stand – The Lakers lost in the Finals because Kobe didn’t have a second scoring option, a guy that could take some of that burden and create shots for himself and others (Gasol+Odom too passive). Even with Bynum coming back healthy (doesn’t create his own shot well enough) that is still a big issue for the Lakers. They still need someone to step up and be that supporting scorer and their best option is Pau Gasol. Yao Ming is an immediate and great upgrade in this regard.

    Bynum+Gasol versus Yao+Gasol – is there an argument that Bynum pairing is superior? I don’t think so.

    Gasol will defending the power forwards and perimeter bigs no matter who he’s next to. Taking Bynum out of the paint would be a negative for the Lakers because it would lessen their interior D and rebounding. It’ll be the exact same for Gasol-Yao so no differences there. Yao provides a lot of rebounding and interior D to balance out Gasol just like Bynum does. No difference there.

    Then we move to the offensive side of the floor where there’s a huge difference and it favours Yao. Yao+Gasol would be a fine complement to one another. Both are talented passers, both are good scorers in the post, both have (Gasol somewhat) have range on their jumper. Yao’s superior scoring skills place less burden on Gasol which is always good for players prone to passive play. Yao’s scoring ability will also mean that Gasol will definitely have the second best interior defender and the physically smaller defender every night on him. I’m not sure if Bynum will demand that defender each night (because he doesn’t create his own shots) although he will most nights. Yao’s will also be able to create more shots for guys like Vujacic and Radmanovic because he will demand a double team in the low post … which is another big plus for Yao.

    I see no argument that Bynum+Gasol is a better pairing than Yao+Gasol.

  42. chris Says:

    This, to me, is not even close.

    I’ve watched Yao through his entire NBA career here in Houston. He is right now the best center in the game. Dwight Howard is second, and the rest are all Power Forwards Or Kwame-Dampiers.

    Yao didn’t come into the League playing with the same level of passion that he’s shown this past year.

    Yao is the best offensive center: Jump shot, post moves, you name it.

    He is getting -a lot- more love from referees and has learned to stand straight up, instead of coming down with his arms.

    Rebound and Block numbers speak for themselves.

    Tim Duncan, Amare and Dirk are the best offensive Power Forwards.

    Dwight and Garnett are the best Rebounding/Defensive/etc. Big Men. (sorry Marcus Camby)

    Maybe you take Bynum for the future, but I think Kobe wants to win soon. Without Kobe, who cares what Bynum does.

    P.S.
    Tmac/Artest/Yao will beat your hometown team in ’08-’09, Ha!

  43. chris Says:

    P. P. S.
    Rudy Tomjanovic, ex-Rockets coach, on a sportsradio610 (Houston Radio Station) noted that Yao’s injury and the surgical reparations actually strengthen that particular bone. So even less chance of a reoccuring-type injury.

    Shaq’s a good model for Yao’s body-type. Both are 300 lbers that play a bunch of basketball. Shaq is still kicking it at age 300, and some still says hes of comparable skill to Yao (if you can believe that)

  44. withmalice Says:

    Oh ye gods…
    Twinkie – no-one made any comment anywhere about you using the word ‘Chinese’. I did castigate you for making stupid bigoted statements/commentary.
    If you looked at my website, and were unable to ascertain my race, then whatever.

    Your point makes no sense. The Lakers are a famous franchise great. So what? If you live in Asia are you telling that Yao Ming isn’t famous there? That’s something you should answer.

    What’s my point? Umm… you were the one who brought up ‘fame’. I said it was irrelevant. Totally. And I’m sure it’s excellent business for the Lakers to take Yue. Immense benefit him playing in the Las Vegas summer league then going back to the Chinese National team.

    Its racist but its true.

    You said it bub.

    -Manu’s got 3 championships. Manu has a gold medal. Kobe’s got 3 championships. But does Kobe have a gold medal yet? And Manu won his gold medal the same year he won the NBA championship. Kobe? He lost to the Celtics.

    I guess that makes Robert Horry the best player in recent years. Talk about illogical.

    Threatened your life? I did no such thing.
    You sir, need a clue.

    Done with you, my 1 year old makes more sense.
    ——–

    Dave – it’s not that “…I’d like to talk about next season.”… it’s that that is the topic. If you’d like to create a blog (or if you have one, point me in the right direction), and discuss the probabilities of what would’ve occured with inserting different people into past championships, why sure, I’ll offer some input!

    With no franchise at all is ‘all about now’. Even with the procuring of Garnett/Allen, I can guarantee you that the Celtics looked at what short-term success would mean to their franchise over losing Jefferson, and committing to a major chunk of change. And it’s a hugely different situation. Boston were one of – if not the – worst teams in the league prior to that change to their roster. LA’s one of the best.

    I see no argument that Bynum+Gasol is a better pairing than Yao+Gasol.

    This isn’t a game of 2-on-2…
    Discussing the roster, it’s not a simple of saying Bynum-in-for-Gasol, or even Bynum+Gasol vs Yao+Gasol, because that’s not who the Lakers are. Playing at the 4, Gasol will be even more effective than before, and you have to include that he gets a full pre-season with LA this time too. Gasol will be an excellent 2nd option for LA. Bynum is 20 years old. There’s a helluva lot of improvement that will occur there. LA don’t need him to be Yao Ming for them to be very, very successful.
    I agree with you that defensively it’s a wash, except that over the past 3 years, Yao hasn’t even come close to finishing a season… but your points on offense are moot because you ignore the presence of Kobe. And Lamar Odom. You cannot enter a discussion on the Lakers’ offense and not mention Bryant.

    And we – again – ignore Yao’s injury issues. 3 years, 3 different leg/foot problems. Anyone care to bet that he’ll play more than 60 games next year, post the Olympics?

    Chris, Houston to beat LA next year? Heh… enjoy that now. Oh, and enjoy Yao’s 50 games next season.

  45. Robin Says:

    After reading a few more responses, I think people really need to consider the role the triangle offense plays in determining who is better suited for the team – Bynum played well with the bench mob; that we can verify. On the other hand, how Yao will fit in is purely speculative. Yao + Gasol would make a wonderful front line, as neither is glued to the low post and both can pass well within the triangle. I agree with Dave that the Lakers would have a sure-fire second option with Yao. But consider how much more offense do the Lakers really need, considering they’re one of the best offensive teams already? Only the Celtics have proved that they could stop the Lakers for stretches, and I wonder if Bynum could have just as easily helped the Lakers in that situation.

    However, since we are discussing the 08-09 Lakers, Bynum’s production is also a matter of speculation. Keep in mind that Bynum was really good last year at posting stats against inferior bench players, even when he was starting. He’s shown for two months that he can dominate the game with his rebounding and post presence, but so has Joel Przybilla.
    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3408/gamelog;_ylt=ApSKRerIcppeW8XOLIkGbrakvLYF?year=2004
    I’m not trying to play down Bynum or overrate the Gorilla, I’m just not as sure of Bynum’s improvement as most people are. He’s shown a consistent hook-shot, a nice touch around the basket, and great defensive instincts, but only on an interim basis. With Yao, you know what he can do as a starter, and Yao has a shown a consistent trend of improving his game each year in the league.

    The injury issue is not entirely clear on either side. A 20 year old who takes months to recover from an injury when it should take weeks is not a good sign. And as With-Malice points out, the Yao has not had a reoccuring injury. Hell, one of them was an infection – completely unrelated to the game itself. And besides, if we’re discussing this topic as a mental exercise, it would seem unwieldy if the discussion were to focus so heavily on potential injury.

  46. El Seano Says:

    Twinkletoes Sugarberry; You Are A M*ron. That is all.

    [khandor's edit.]

  47. khandor Says:

    Time for me to step in here and clarify a couple of salient items, from my perspective.

    * Thanks to all who have contributed their ideas to this point.
    * A lot of keen insight … with a few areas of difficulty sprinkled about. To be expected, in an exchange of this type. Not to worry, though. :-)
    * All should know that it’s absolutely killing me NOT to be able to jump in and participate freely, just yet, as I promised I would wait until Thursday, August 7, 2008 to provide my own rationale on this subject. However, thems the ‘Rules of Engagement’ I set up initially and, as such, they need to be adhered to. :-)

    * To clarify:

    – There are actually two parts to the discussion … (i) phdsteve’s assertion that Yao Ming is the best 7-footer in the world today; and, (ii) phdsteve’s assertion that Yao Ming is who Phil Jackson would choose for his team if asked to choose between Yao Ming and Andrew Bynum AND my (khandor’s) assertion that Phil Jackson would choose Bynum, instead, if forced to choose between these two players, exclusively, as the Center for his team. Conceivably, your answer(s) could be the same for both parts OR they could be different, depending on your specific rationale.

    – Presenting your own side of the matter SHOULD/NEED not make it necessary to insult (i.e. call names, etc.) another who presents an alternative perspective. Respect for an interpretation which is different from your own is important and what’s expected on this blog. A wide latitude is granted, in most cases, where it appears as though no mean-spiritedness or intent to injure exists but … reasonable people need to/must know the limits of what this space will tolerate, as a form of legitimate dialogue/exchange, and what steps across the line. :-)

    – If you see comments which you deem to be intentionally mean-spirited or derogatory, etc., please point them out to me, via email [khandor@bellnet.ca]. They will be evaluated and, if need be, edited/removed.

    – The topic of Race, in general, and Race & Sport, specifically, is one which produces considerable debate. For further background on my perspective click here …

    http://arsenalist.com/2007/06/27/the-best-white-players-in-the-nba/, messages #46 & #51

    and here …

    http://khandorssportsblog.wordpress.com/defining-athleticism-in-the-nba/

    In this instance, however, when choosing between Yao Ming and Andrew Bynum … from my perspective, there is no room for an argument based on Race, Nationality of Birth, Citizenship, Ethnicity, Culture, Colour, Geographical place of Origin or Residency, Marketability, Popularity, Celebrity, future Hall of Fame status, Economic Impact, etc.

    – Moving forward, please limit any rationale you provide to matters which pertain directly to on-court basketball performance, exclusively.

    Thanks for your continued cooperation, and enjoy the blog!

    It’s a lot of fun (and informative) when we seek to work together. :-)

  48. Dave Says:

    I fully agree that Gasol will be more dangerous as a power forward. But let’s be honest, the problem wasn’t his ability to be effective in the Finals, it was his passive play. The man only scored just under 15ppg but it wasn’t because he couldn’t get his shot. He was able to get the shots he wanted on either Perkins, KG or PJ Brown. He also shot a very good percentage at 53% and scored 1.42 points per shot which is a very good rate. The problem was he wasn’t shooting the ball enough and those problems were mental.

    Also Gasol’s increased effectiveness will be there with either Bynum or Yao. It will likely be even more next to Yao because he’ll demand more defensive attention offering even more freedom to Gasol.

    The Gasol-Bynum pairing versus the Yao-Gasol pairing tells the majority of the story. All one needs know is (1) that the Lakers need a better second scorer which Yao is and that Yao creates more shots for his teammates. We already know that he’s a good passer and intelligent and has the perfect skill set for the Triangle. Yao’s teammates will flourish. (2) Yao creates more opportunities for his teammates so the benefits will flow down through the squad.

    With respect to Bynum or Yao

    I see no change in Odom’s game.
    I see more benefits for Fisher, Farmer, Vujacic, Radmanovic, Walton because all those guys are role playing perimeter shooters who are best when superior players are creating shots for them. They’ll all get better looks and more looks.
    Ariza will see a small effect. Yao’s a better playmaker with his passing than Andrew and because Ariza is primarily a cutter he’ll be more dangerous.

    The Lakers will have more lineup flexibility because Yao’s impact will mean Odom and Gasol can play with the second unit at all times which will give LA an incredible level of consistency offensively. They’ll also always have a post player on the court. Yao’s scoring ability next to Kobe means they can play parts of the game by themselves allowing Gasol/Odom some rest before they play with the second unit.

    Which brings is to Kobe Bryant. No player on the Lakers roster will benefit more from Yao Ming’s scoring ability than Kobe Bryant. He desperately needs that second scorer to beat top defenses like Boston. Just someone who can take some burden off his shoulders, someone who’ll force the defense to react to him so that they’re not always loaded up on Kobe, someone who’ll create a shot for the role players. That will make a monumental difference to Kobe’s game.

    Which brings us back to Gasol and the difference he made to Kobe and the Lakers. A player of superior quality will only make a larger difference. Which was the point I was making with the example of last season.

    We’ve already said the defense and rebounding is comparable so no substantial differences there.

    As for the Lakers. They’ll be a phenomenal team next season and one of the main frontrunners for the title with Bynum. They’ll just be better if they had Yao Ming instead. Bynum is a tremendous young player who’ll make huge contributions, he just isn’t as good as Yao.

  49. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    Oh ye gods…
    Twinkie – no-one made any comment anywhere about you using the word ‘Chinese’. I did castigate you for making stupid bigoted statements/commentary.
    If you looked at my website, and were unable to ascertain my race, then whatever.

    – You ignore my good points because you know they are correct. And if you are Japanese why do you hate Yao Ming?
    (Even the fact that you feel comfortable with using the word ‘chink’ to describe yourself is obscene.) What do you call that?
    If my commentary is stupid it sure heats you up good. Then why respond?

    What’s my point? Umm… you were the one who brought up ‘fame’. I said it was irrelevant. Totally. And I’m sure it’s excellent business for the Lakers to take Yue. Immense benefit him playing in the Las Vegas summer league then going back to the Chinese National team.
    Its racist but its true. You said it bub.

    -Thank you for agreeing with me. Fame is absolutely relevant. When you said the Lakers are the greatest franchise ever. What do you call that? Fame? Obviously if you use logic you would know that Sue Yue was a second round draft pick. And that the Lakers picked him up much higher in the second round than they were suppose too. Because he’s Chinese. He’s no Yao Ming. Which is why the Lakers are still waiting on him and we’ll probably bring him back next year.

    Manu’s got 3 championships. Manu has a gold medal. Kobe’s got 3 championships. But does Kobe have a gold medal yet? And Manu won his gold medal the same year he won the NBA championship. Kobe? He lost to the Celtics. I guess that makes Robert Horry the best player in recent years. Talk about illogical.

    -That shutup you up good. Hey are you the type of person that says Kobe is the greatest. Kobe is better than Michael Jordan?

    Threatened your life? I did no such thing.
    You sir, need a clue.

    (Went to the beach with family and friends today, one of them is a guy that perhaps you should run that line of thought by. He’d EAT you alive. Whatever your nationality.) What do you call that buddy ?

    Hey, withmalice would you trade Andrew Bynum for Kevin Garnett? Would you trade Amare Stoudemire (a guy with a history of injures) for Andrew Bynum? Would you trade Andrew Bynum for Greg Oden (injuries) and youth? I bet you wouldn’t cause your a Laker fan.

  50. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    El Seano it made you respond right B*TCH. Didn’t your mommy ever tell you that if you can’t say nothing nice then don’t say anything at all. Who the h*ll are you anyways? Me and (Mitch Kupchak #1 fan) here are having a discussion. You wanna join? Then write something dumb*ss. I don’t usually use profanity but he started it. Your very childish. What are you going to do now say the OBIVOUS that Twinkletoes Sugarberry is a g*y handle.

    [khandor's edit.]

  51. Dowjones Says:

    hey with malice, re you last response, yeah it’s not just about plug and chug bynum, gasol and then yao into the laker line up and see what happens hypothetically w/out taking into account the rest of the line-up.

    I think what Dave is saying isn’t that you should switch yao and bynum and gasol into and out of the laker lineup to see the hypothetical results, he is making the point that yao and gasol are comparable, within their team’s system pre-triangle, aka gasol’s time with grizzlies, as very good scorers and good passers with high basketball IQ, that though Yao is slower and has a hard time guarding fast/undersized forwards/centers that it evens out because of his offensive contributions and his rebounding prowess. Those things can be isolated from a wider team concept because we’ve already seen that good offense and good passing w/ a high basketball IQ translates well into the triangle offense.

    Dave makes the very good comparison of the 35 games bynum was w/ the lakers w/ the games that gasol was w/ the lakers to show that as a TEAM, lakers TEAM offense is better with gasol and his offense and high basketball IQ and this off-sets the pluses in defense that bynum offers by being extremely athletic and not afraid to bang down low. However, Yao has shown consistently that he isn’t afraid to bang, furthermore, as has been noted, Yao has better pick and row TEAM defense because he knows when to show and when to hedge hard, etc. Things that Bynum is still learning. For a better comparison, Yao is about light years ahead of Shaq in terms of exerting effort and understanding TEAM pick and row def and Phil won’t ever have to have the headache of trying to think up schemes of hiding Yao like he had to w/ shaq against teams w/ heavy doses of PnR and both yao and shaq COMMANDS double teams against most teams (remember Kings did play shaq straight up for a bit because Divac flopping got shaq into foul trouble).

    Everyone is saying that Bynum has more potential, but does potential ALWAYS translate into solid golden trophies? We won’t know, there’s a high degree of risk. Sure Bynum might surpass Yao, but there’s also the risk of Bynum never realizing his potential. I believe that Phil would probably rather take the sure thing over potential since his goal would most likely be to win the title right now with kobe in his prime and that would be a much easier task when you have two players who both commands the double team and are above average on defense. I am also positive that Phil would be able to devise defensive schemes to help cover up Yao’s weakness against more agile centers (boozer anyone?) and even if he couldn’t I think Yao’s contribution on the offense far outweighs the negatives that he will have when he encounters a match-up nightmare, plus Yao abuses DHoward (DHo fouls out, avgs less pts, assists, rebs than Yao) and definitely Perkins.

    End point, Yao is a lot more refined and developed, is a known commodity, he plays above average (at least) defense, has a pretty good PnR defense, phenomenal offense and very good passing and can finish around the rim from Kobe’s passes as well as Bynum (he had to put up with those steve francis lobs and still convert for two years for godsakes!!!). He would open up the floor for gasol and others…like the machine. It would be a very fair reflection if you compare Yao now to Shaq (Shaq is better but not by as much as shaq thinks) except Yao converts 80% of his FTs and wouldn’t be a cancer to chemistry the way shaq was and will actually work hard on improving his game. And no, Yao and Gasol aren’t redundant, Yao is bigger, tougher (ever saw that youtube video of him cursing during that Clipper game?) and just as good at PnR as gasol if not better.

    Twinkletoes has a point that there’s cultural divide of the fact that in China, being humble is viewed as a virtue and Yao is very humble, however that does not mean he can’t be tough (there was a lot written on this all over the internet i think, about the cultural aspect, which is mostly true). From all accounts, Yao has been learning how to trash talk and express himself more in the past few years. I am sure he’ll be a beast this season. And from looking over Phil’s track record in the context of him coaching bigtime dominate centers (shaq), I really don’t think it would be much of a worry that Phil WOULDN’T want Yao over Bynum purely because of the fact that Bynum has potential. Yao on the Lakers, hell last season, would mean the championship parade in LA rather than Boston. Like Dave detailed, the reason the lakers didn’t win was because Boston took away the Kobe/Gasol pick and row because Gasol got way too gunshy during the finals and Kobe literally had to go 1 on 5 VERY GOOD defenders. Yao has been playing under the pressure of 1.6 billion pairs of eyes since his first day in the league so I’m pretty sure he’ll be fine with the pressure of playing in the nba finals.

    Anyhow, Bynum might have the potential of a dynasty on par with the celtics but Yao will almost garantee phil and kobe one if not three championships by the virtue of having a very refined game and being in his prime.

  52. Dowjones Says:

    oh wow, dave just made my post redundant, lol…oh well…i agree with most of what he says…

  53. khandor Says:

    Twinkletoes,

    Let me try this one more time.

    The enthusiasm with which you are presenting your rationale is appreciated.

    However, in order to continue posting freely on this blog, you will need to limit your commentary to matters related to basketball … of which, IMO, someone’s ethnic/cultural/nationalistic/etc. heritage/association is completely (or, at least, mostly) irrelevant.

    Do you understand? :-)

    [Note: If not, please respond to my email and we can discuss it further.]

  54. withmalice Says:

    Don’t bother Khandor, I don’t think many of the rationales are getting through anyway.
    Quantum leaper…

  55. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    I understand Khandor. I was just responding to Mitch Kupchak’s b*tch. Hey, withmalice let’s just fighting. Were both beautiful. I’m a little prettier but were both beautiful. You got good points and I do too. Peace. Forgive me?

    [khandor's edit. Try this link instead.

    It seems to be working a little bit better. :-) Power packed.]

  56. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    * Hey, withmalice let’s STOP fighting.

  57. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    A) who is the better centre. YAO MING is clearly right now numbers wise.
    or

    B) who would Phil Jackson rather have at center? YAO MING. But this will never happen. Because Houston will never trade Yao Ming unless he’s finished. Similar to Hakeem Olajuwon’s career. Yao Ming because of his race makes money.

    In this instance, however, when choosing between Yao Ming and Andrew Bynum … from my perspective, there is no room for an argument based on Race, Nationality of Birth, Citizenship, Ethnicity, Culture, Colour, Geographical place of Origin or Residency, Marketability, Popularity, Celebrity, future Hall of Fame status, Economic Impact, etc.

    – Moving forward, please limit any rationale you provide to matters which pertain directly to on-court basketball performance, exclusively.

    -I won’t talk about it no more. But I would just like to say race is very important in sports. And in comparing a player like Yao Ming with somebody else. You cannot take away the fact that he’s Chinese. Thus, Yao Ming is different from any other basketball player that has played in the NBA. Chinese basketball players are rare. Thus, a bigger market for the NBA to make money. Though race is a controversial topic. It still can not be denied in a debate like this. Buts its your blog Khandor so I’ll shutup.

    Also was this debate about right now? The new season 08-09? Then why are you guys talking about youth and how much potential Bynum has? And the injures when both have injures? Yao Ming is in his prime right now. And clearly better than Bynum is now. Which is why a Yao, Gasol, Kobe lineup would more likely win the championship. For the Lakers fan not trading Bynum for Yao is like saying that you wouldn’t trade Bynum for Garnett? You win championships now. Look at the 07-08 Boston Celtics. And not on potential and youth.

  58. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    khandor Where did you find this on RaptorsTalk.com? I would like to see what phdsteve say. Do you have the link?

  59. khandor Says:

    twinkletoes,

    To you, Race may be important, and it may be connected to your own rationale for the position you hold. That’s fine.

    However, this does not mean that Race is a relevant aspect of this specific discussion, IMO.

    How much money a team can make with a specific player, in comparison to a different player, is immaterial to this specific exchange of ideas.

    The profitablity of the Lakers franchise, in terms of dollars and cents, is NOT a part of this question, from Phil Jackson’s POV, as the coach of the Lakers.

    Please understand that this exchange needs to be limited to the on-court basketball aspects of choosing between Yao Ming and Andrew Bynum, specially, from the POV of Phil Jackson. Period.

    As an aside … one could even go so far as to make the case that in this specific instance, according to the wording of the two-part question, the LA Lakers team (2207-2008, 2008-2009, or further into the future), as is, need not be an integral element of anyone’s answer … as, for example, someone might very well say something like this, instead:

    If Phil Jackson had to form an NBA team from scratch, based on what is known about his preferred style of basketball, this is who I believe he would most likely choose to play the Center position on such a hypothetical team, _____________ (insert name of either Yao Ming or Andrew Bynum on that line), followed by the other 4 players I believe Phil Jackson would choose to align with either Yao Ming or Andrew Bynum.”

    Now, I am not saying that this is what someone SHOULD/NEEDS TO do to answer this question properly … all I’m suggesting here is that it is unnecessary to focus one’s attention on such matters as (for example) Race, or (overall) Franchise Profitability, etc., when attempting to contribute productively to this specific exchange of ideas.

    Hopefully others can and do understand where I’m coming from on this. :-)

    Stick to the on-court basketball related aspects of this choice between Yao Ming and Andrew Bynum and then you can’t go wrong. :-)

    [PS. The link is in the 1st paragraph of the original post, above. :-) ]

  60. Twinkletoes Sugarberry Says:

    [PS. The link is in the 1st paragraph of the original post, above. ] Oh so you guys just started this on comments. I thought it was a real article by somebody.

  61. Jav Says:

    Twinkletoes, it is soooo pathetic that you base your whole argument of who is better based on race……talk about stereotypes! Secondly, you mention about how Yao has been to the allstar and Andrew Bynum hasnt’…..well guess what, unless someone fires a nuclear bomb into China to eliminate the entire 1.3 billion people, Yao will always win, regardless of whether or not he is better. Fans who vote, vote with their hearts, not their brain and last i saw, 1.3 billion hearts is way more than 300 million!!

    So, your whole argument is stupid and lacks credibility!

    Now, to answer the question, Phil would definitely choose Bynum over Yao, not just because of the potential, but because Bynum is a tougher player (nothing to do with race) and will control the paint much better. Anyone who doubts Andrew’s toughness need only see the youtube video of Andrew going back at Sh*t, i mean Shaq, when Shaq dunked on him.

    [khandor's edit: Profanity is unnecessary. :-) ]

  62. khandor Says:

    twinkletoes,

    Started out as ‘follow-up commentary’ to a specific article that phdsteve did on Raptorstalk.com that shifted into an exchange of ideas re: the relative values of Yao Ming & Andrew Bynum, as Centers, in the eyes of Phil Jackson … which appeared to have legs enough to stand on its own, IMHO.

    Given the exchanges which have followed here, thus far … seems as though that idea had substantial merit.

    Instead of starting with a full-blown article, per se … which is customary on-line … decided to flow in reverse, in this case … seeing the range of opinions ‘out there’ (so-to-speak) – beyond phdsteve & me – before dropping my own rationale re: this specific question.

    Will be interesting to see where it goes from here. :-)

    Lots of good stuff, to this point.

  63. I know the truth!!! Says:

    Dwight Howard!!!! He can do everything that Bynum can do but better with more explosiveness and athleticism. He’s not injury-prone like Bynum is either.

  64. khandor Says:

    truth,

    Only votes allowed are for Yao Ming or Andrew Bynum. Sorry. :-)

  65. withmalice Says:

    Either way, an inane comment truth – one injury doesn’t make him ‘injury-prone’. If so, Howard’s just as ‘injury-prone’…
    Sheesh…

  66. maw Says:

    Yao Ming

    Reason:
    Altough I think the ceiling for Bynum is high, I do not think it is THAT HIGH. I doubt that he can equal the 25pts, 10rbs, 2blks production that Yao puts up let alone surpass it. To put things into perspective, if Bynum was the franshise player of Houston along with McGrady, do you think they will reach the playoffs? In the western conference?

  67. Yao Ming or Andrew Bynum: Part II (the call) « Khandor’s Sports Blog Says:

    [...] Ming or Andrew Bynum: Part II (the call) The votes for last week’s on-line survey have been [...]

  68. perfectjab Says:

    Tough question.

    I would asume Yao based on current value and track record. You have to factor in Kobe’s age as well.

    Yao can make an immediate impact to an already top calibre team, while Bynum still has a lot of question marks. In fact I’d go so far to say that if Bynum ever gets Yao numbers the Lakers would be extremely happy.

    Bynum is definately the more interesting of the two though.

  69. Travis Outlaw Says:

    withmalice, you said:
    What’s my point? Umm… you were the one who brought up ‘fame’. I said it was irrelevant. Totally. And I’m sure it’s excellent business for the Lakers to take Yue. Immense benefit him playing in the Las Vegas summer league then going back to the Chinese National team.

    -Now Sue Yue is a Laker. And won’t get cut off the team (even though Joe Crawford and Josh Powell are playing better than him) because he’s Chinese. And probably won’t play a minute this season.
    Now race isn’t important in sports? :)

  70. khandor Says:

    Travis,

    IMO, With Malice’s point may have been that … in terms of appraising accurately the quality of a player’s performance his race/ethnicity is not important; and, that what counts are things like his skill level, attitudinal characteristics and on-court production.

  71. Travis Outlaw Says:

    Then why is Sun Yue still on the team? (The Lakers final two cuts will end up being between Joe Crawford and Josh Powell both of which have played better than Sue.)

    What do you call Yi Jianlian and his hype?

  72. khandor Says:

    Travis,

    Better is a relative word, and subject to what you are looking for in terms of evaluating any given player.

    Based on some of what you’ve said in other threads, thus far, it seems like you are looking at different things than what I am looking at when evaluating a NBA player … e.g. Sun Yue’s upside, as a potential NBA player [who could be a #1 or #3 with good size] is superior to that of Josh Powell [who is an under-sized #4], IMO, although Powell is a more accomplished NBA player to this point in his career.

    There’s a significant difference between those two evaluative observations I’m making.

    re: Yi Jianlian

    It’s going to be interesting to see exactly how he is going to be used by Lawrence Frank in New Jersey. As a quasi ‘Dirk like’ #4, he is still very much a mystery, at this level of competition.

    Could be an outright bust, or for example turn into a ‘Keith Van Horn type’ of serviceable NBA ‘small-big’.

  73. Travis Outlaw Says:

    The Lakers are using Sun Yue and the Nets are using Yi Jianlian as a BUSINESS because thats what the NBA is. They are using them to promote a bigger asian viewer audience fan base. I think people know that its happening but just don’t want to OPEN THEIR EYES.

    Don’t talk about Powell. Talk about Joe Crawford. Joe Crawford is a BETTER player than Sue Yue will ever be. But lets see who gets cut first. Joe Crawford.

  74. Travis Outlaw Says:

    Yi Jianlian: Did you hear about the Milwaukee situation? Yi might be a bust in New Jersey. But I think thats going to be pretty hard when he starts and plays every minute. And probably over a better play like Sean Williams.

  75. Travis Outlaw Says:

    player*

  76. khandor Says:

    A person who I know within the Lakers organization does not believe their team is using Sun Yue for the purposes you’ve indicated … but, on the contrary, on account of his ability, as a ‘prospective’ NBA player with a solid upside … and, based on what I’ve seen, thus far, myself from Sun Yue … I would agree with this perception.

    You, of course, are free to hold a different opinion. :-)

    re: Yi Jianlian

    As I’ve said before. time will tell which sort of NBA player he develops into.

  77. Travis Outlaw Says:

    Who do you know?

    Sun Yue was drafted before Marc Gasol. Sun was drafted way before Ramon Sessions. Do you think he’s a better player than them?

  78. Travis Outlaw Says:

    If this up coming NBA draft included a Yao Ming (Chinese) and Andrew Bynum (Black) both at age 20, no history of injury. If you were a NBA GM who would you choose? And why?

  79. khandor Says:

    Travis,

    At the moment, I am not at liberty to identify the person with the Lakers’ organization who I happen to know.

    What I can say, however, is that this person is in a position to know the exact reasons Yue was drafted by the Lakeshow.

    I consider Marc Gasol, Ramon Sessions and Sun Yue to each have very bright futures in the NBA.

    Right now, although none of the three look as though he is going to be a mega-star, the one with the biggest upside might be Sun Yue because of the positions he plays.

    IMO, Sessions and Gasol are going to be very solid NBA players.

    =============================

    re: Bynum or Yao Ming

    Andrew Bynum would be my choice … by a wide margin.

    Bynum’s ability to rebound the ball, block shots, anchor the defense, temporarily switch/provide help on other position players and his overall agility, mobility and explosive athleticism, at his size … simply dwarf the superior offensive package which Yao Ming has at the moment.

    As Bynum continues to mature he is going to increase his power base WHILE retaining his agility/mobility/athleticism. Once he adds to his offensive package, he is going to rival Greg Oden and Dwight Howard, as the most dominant BIG MAN in the post-Spaq/Tim Duncan era of the NBA.

  80. Travis Outlaw Says:

    khandor,

    The Lakers waived Joe Crawford and Coby Karl and decided to keep Sun Yue. What are your thoughts on this?

  81. khandor Says:

    Travis,

    As I told you before … Sun Yue is being kept by the Lakers because of his upside in the NBA, as a player who they think is going to be very good down-the-road.

    You are free to disagree with the Lakers’ braintrust if you’d like … but, it doesn’t necessarily make you right.

    Time will tell the story there, as it always does. :-)

  82. Travis Outlaw Says:

    re: Bynum or Yao Ming

    Andrew Bynum would be my choice … by a wide margin.

    Bynum’s ability to rebound the ball, block shots, anchor the defense, temporarily switch/provide help on other position players and his overall agility, mobility and explosive athleticism, at his size … simply dwarf the superior offensive package which Yao Ming has at the moment.

    As Bynum continues to mature he is going to increase his power base WHILE retaining his agility/mobility/athleticism. Once he adds to his offensive package, he is going to rival Greg Oden and Dwight Howard, as the most dominant BIG MAN in the post-Spaq/Tim Duncan era of the NBA.

    -Khandor,
    If you would choose Andrew Bynum over Yao Ming( both age 20, and no history of injury) than you as a NBA GM would be fired. Why? Because Yao Ming is Chinese. The players you mentioned Greg Oden, Dwight Howard are similar to Andrew Bynum race wise. Yao Ming is different. Market wise Yao Ming alone will sell more jerseys, create more viewers, create more exposure for the NBA. Like Yao Ming has already done since 2002. And as you probably seen with this summers olympics. On the court wise Yao Ming is just as good as Andrew Bynum.

    -Like I said above. I believe the Lakers drafted Sun Yue for the same reasons as Yao Ming. To use him as a market tool. Of course Sun’s level of talent is not the same here and this is why we won’t see him play much for the Lakers. Sun is not a better basketball than Joe Crawford and Coby Karl. (He might never be). And of course the Lakers are developing him and he has lots of talent or upside and down the road he MAY be good. But he is clearly being kept because he’s Chinese. (Hopefully he doesn’t turn into a bust).

    Once he adds to his offensive package, he is going to rival Greg Oden and Dwight Howard, as the most dominant BIG MAN in the post-Spaq/Tim Duncan era of the NBA.
    -Khandor, you think too highly of Greg Oden. You constantly rank him so high in other posts. But you know right now Yi Jianlian( who you called a possible bust) is actually the better basketball player. At least he actually plays in the games.

  83. khandor Says:

    Travis,

    1. Count yourself fortunate that I am an open-minded person who gives considerable latitude to the expressed opines of others, as long as I don’t see them intentionally trying to harm others.

    2. However, know this much, without a doubt from me.

    A statement like this one:

    “But he [Sun Yue] is clearly being kept because he’s Chinese.”

    is blatantly wrong and smacks of racism … which is indefensible, and will not be tolerated on this blog.

    3. If you wish to continue to leave your comments here … you will NEED to stop making statements/claims like THAT one.

    4. You are always free to disagree with an opinion I express on my blog but you are not free to say stuff like that here.

    This is your final warning.

    [NOTE: If it happens again ... your comments will be deleted.]

  84. Travis Outlaw Says:

    Khandor,
    Please explain to me how this is racism? Who did I hurt? Yao Ming is Chinese DIFFERENT than Andrew Bynum. And thus makes him more attractive to NBA teams. Is that not the truth?

    PLEASE NOTE: The Houston Rockets website has Chinese letters on the top of the website. So does the Nets. The others don’t. Why? :)

    Isn’t Obama different than McCain. Why are people talking so much about the political race? Because for the first time the United States might have a black president. Don’t you follow my logic?

    THE NBA IS A BUSINESS. :) You just can’t admit your wrong. Its alright if you want to close your eyes.

    How is me saying [Sun Yue] is clearly being kept because he’s Chinese racism? Please explain.

  85. khandor Says:

    Travis,

    I really don’t have much interest in explaining this to you … in part, because it seems to me as though you are simply not going to accept what I’m saying here about this specific topic, no matter how it’s presented to you or by whom it happens to be presented.

    That said, I will give it one try … and one try only.

    If you don’t get it this time … that’s too bad, cause I’m not going back and forth on this specific issue, because it is simply too important to mess around with, IMO.

    Saying that,

    “THE reason the Lakers are keeping Sun Yue is because he’s Chinese”

    is as wrong as saying that,

    “The reason the majority of Americans will be voting for Barack Obama tomorrow as the next US President is because he is black.”

    It is immaterial what someone’s race/ethnicity is as a basketball player.

    What is material is what that player’s skills are; what his level of athleticism is; what his height, and weight, and strength, and quickness are, relative to his opponent at a specific position; what his attitude is; what positions he can actually play; what his basketball IQ is; what his leadership skills are; what he is like as a teammate; what his unique strengths and weaknesses are, etc., … as an elite level athlete.

    Marketing it is not what we are talking about, in this specific instance.
    Business, per se, is not what we are talking about, in this specific instance.

    It might be what you may want to bring into the discussion … but it’s not what is at issue here, when the subject is, as a basketball player in the NBA what’s THE reason Sun Yue is being kept by the Lakers and players Coby Karl and Joe Crawford are being let go.

    The exact same principle applies to Barack Obama.

    What we are talking about here, when the subject is, as a candidate for the Presidency of the United States of America what’s THE reason he [Barack] is being voted for by the majority of the American citizenry and other candidates like Hilary Clinton and John McCain are not.

    What a person’s ethnicity/race is … or not … is immaterial to that discussion.

    What is material is …

    e.g. what that person’s intelligence is; what their level of integrity is; what their judgment & decision-making skills are; what their level of experience is; what their world, international, domestic, regional and local views are; what their character is, etc., etc., etc., …

    IMO … it is a disservice to who these people are as individual human beings to ascribe to them REASONS for success, in a particular field, which pertain to something else … anything else, for that matter … other than specific aspects of what’s required to fulfill that position which is now [or is soon to be] theirs.

    Human beings everywhere are so much more than just …

    what their nationality is, or
    what their citizenship is, or
    what their ethnic origin/race is, or
    what their skin pigmentation is, or
    what their first language is, or
    what their sex is, or
    what their sexual orientation is, or
    what their age is, or
    etc., etc., etc., …

    Now, hopefully, you get this message, this time … and exclude these types of comments/claims/statements from your future contributions here.

    If so … that’s terrific. :-)

    If not … then, that’s simply too bad.

  86. Travis Outlaw Says:

    Khandor,
    Its terrific you think that way. But MOST people in the world don’t. :) And that’s simply too bad. What you are saying is right but most people don’t think like this. Nobody in the NBA thinks like this.

    I am not racist for saying Sun Yue is being kept by the Lakers because he’s Chinese. In fact, I more am accusing the Lakers of racism. (By the way I wish Sun Yue well.)

    I believe racism is more for example:
    (I hate black people so I exclude them from my club. )

    And NOT what I’m trying to say (acknowledging Obama as the first black president.)

    Should skill decide who’s the next president? In a perfect world it would be that way. But the world is not perfect. And many African-Americans will vote for Obama just because he’s black. Is there anything wrong with that? To me its NO. But I guess you might call that racism as well?

  87. khandor Says:

    ——————————————————-
    re: In fact, I more am accusing the Lakers of racism.
    ——————————————————-

    And, IMO … if the Lakers are doing this for THAT reason then what they are doing is indeed a form of ‘racism’, as well.

    Remember, though, that I told you before … I have it on good authority that THE reason the Lakers are keeping Sun Yue is NOT based on his race/ethnicity but based upon his ‘upside’ as a talented NBA prospect who they want to see develop in the NBA [if he can stick with their team] this season.

    You can choose to disagree with what I’ve said in this regard but you are not in a position to say that what has been told to me is anything other than what has [in fact] been told to me … and which is what I see, personally, when I evaluate the skills & abilities of players like Sun Yue, Coby Karl and Joe Crawford.

    ——————————————————-
    Is there anything wrong with that? To me its NO. But I guess you might call that racism as well?
    ——————————————————-

    That’s correct … I would refer to that as an example of ‘racism’, as well.

    Racism, per se, is not confined to any specific group and cuts every which way possible under the sun.

  88. Travis Outlaw Says:

    That’s correct … I would refer to that as an example of ‘racism’, as well.

    Racism, per se, is not confined to any specific group and cuts every which way possible under the sun.
    -Unfortunately NOBODY in the world thinks like you. :)

    Sun Yue has UPSIDE right? Once he develops. What NBA player would he most resemble right now? What are your thought?

  89. khandor Says:

    Travis,

    ———————————————-
    re: -Unfortunately NOBODY in the world thinks like you.
    ———————————————-

    That might well be the case.

    I cannot control how other people think [or not]. I can only control how I think.

    That said …

    When you were little did your mother or father tell you something like this:

    “If your friend tells you that s/he is going to jump off a cliff, doesn’t mean that you should be stupid enough to do so also.”

    Well …

    just because others might practice wrong/incorrect thinking doesn’t mean that you [or I] need to, as well. ;-)

    ——————————-
    re: Sun Yue has UPSIDE right? Once he develops. What NBA player would he most resemble right now? What are your thought?
    ——————————-

    No, Sun Yue has considerable ‘upside’ right now.

    How good he becomes eventually will be determined down-the-road, once he ‘develops’ fully as an NBA player.

    There is no one who comes to mind immediately when I think of a comparison for Sun Yue.

  90. Travis Outlaw Says:

    There is no one who comes to mind immediately when I think of a comparison for Sun Yue.
    -When he DEVELOPS how good is he going to be? Is he a starting point guard? A back up 6th man? A 12th man( Possibly no better than Karl Coby and Joe Crawford)? Is it really UPSIDE that is keeping him on the team? Or RACE?

  91. Travis Outlaw Says:

    That might well be the case.

    I cannot control how other people think [or not]. I can only control how I think.

    That said …

    When you were little did your mother or father tell you something like this:

    “If your friend tells you that s/he is going to jump off a cliff, doesn’t mean that you should be stupid enough to do so also.”

    Well …

    just because others might practice wrong/incorrect thinking doesn’t mean that you [or I] need to, as well. ;-)

    (YOUR EXAMPLE IS OF THE EXTREME)

    -ITS TIME TO OPEN YOUR EYES KHANDOR.

    EXAMPLE:
    It’s the 90’s again and everybody is buying computers now. Do you choose to follow the crowd?

    P.S. RACE DEFINES WHO YOU ARE AND WHO YOU BECOME :)

  92. khandor Says:

    Travis,

    1.

    —————————————————
    re: (YOUR EXAMPLE IS OF THE EXTREME)

    -ITS TIME TO OPEN YOUR EYES KHANDOR.
    —————————————————

    Of anyone who you might happen to know, trust that this pair of eyes remains open wide, at all times.

    2.

    —————————————————
    re:
    EXAMPLE:
    It’s the 90’s again and everybody is buying computers now. Do you choose to follow the crowd?

    —————————————————

    Just in case you haven’t figured it out yet … trust that what I do, specifically, does NOT involve following the crowd anywhere.

    What I do … cuts its own path.

    There are those who then choose to follow IT, or not … that is their perogative, as free thinking human beings.

    3.

    —————————————————
    re: P.S. RACE DEFINES WHO YOU ARE AND WHO YOU BECOME
    —————————————————

    If this is what the world in which you happen to live has taught you, so far, know that you have my sincere sympathy.

    Nothing more; and, nothing less.

    I am grateful for the experiences I’ve had in life, thus far, which have taught me something altogether different than that. :-)

  93. khandor Says:

    Travis,

    ——————————————————-
    re: When he [Sun Yue] DEVELOPS how good is he going to be? Is he a starting point guard? A back up 6th man? A 12th man( Possibly no better than Karl Coby and Joe Crawford)? Is it really UPSIDE that is keeping him on the team? Or RACE?
    ——————————————————-

    Yes … it is really ‘upside’ that is keeping him on the team, according to what I’ve been told and what I can see with my own eyes.

    In the judgment of the Lakers’ Sun Yue has the ability to become a starting player or a key bench player for their team … if he continues to develop his game, at the NBA level … which is where he’s now at, on a full-time basis.

    At his size & strength, with his relative quickness at the positions he plays, his bball IQ, his overall skill set, and his constructive attitude … Sun Yue is a solid fit for a Phil Jackson coached team which uses (i) the Triangle Offense, (ii) an integrated Team Defense, and emphasizes (iii) A Commitment to Rebounding.

  94. Travis Outlaw Says:

    PREVIOUS POST YOU DELETED:
    -Are you just messing with me? You said ^ that black people are racist for choosing Obama just because their black. That is just stupidity. But I think your just contradicting my statements right ?

    ————————————————————————————–
    RE: (QUOTE) Just in case you haven’t figured it out yet … trust that what I do, specifically, does NOT involve following the crowd anywhere.
    What I do … cuts its own path. There are those who then choose to follow IT, or not … that is their perogative, as free thinking human beings.
    ————————————————————————————–
    – Are you calling yourself a leader? If you choose not to buy a computer then you will never learn anything about technology. You will live in ignorance. Sometimes its better to follow the crowd than follow the leader don’t you think? Ask me more I can give you lots of examples of this statement.

    ————————————————————————————-
    RE: (QUOTE) If this is what the world in which you happen to live has taught you, so far, know that you have my sincere sympathy.
    Nothing more; and, nothing less.
    I am grateful for the experiences I’ve had in life, thus far, which have taught me something altogether different than that. :-)
    ————————————————————————————
    — Khandor do you see any difference between a black person and a white person etc. ? Do you think their lives are EXACTLY similar?

    -Tradition, History, Success, how you vote, how successful you are at sports, the food you eat, and much more IS ALL DEFINED BY RACE. It is ignorant not to acknowledge that. But if you want to close your eyes and choose to ignore it thats your own choice. Know that Khandor you have my sincere sympathy. Nothing more; and, nothing less. :)

  95. Travis Outlaw Says:

    TIME WILL ONLY TELL HOW GOOD SUN YUE IS :) But I have to disagree with one little thing. I hardly doubt he will ever start on the Lakers. But you never know.

  96. khandor Says:

    Travis,

    I believe in the concept of the human race.

    Period.

    IMO … that which you are attempting to say today about the ancient concept of ‘race’ is not applicable in the modern world, given the patterns of human migration, sociological inter-mingling, and integrated thought of the last 400 years or so.

    I fundamentally disagree with your perception/claim that your concept of race is applicable in today’s society and is capable of DEFINING properly who a person IS in this world in which we live.

    You are certainly free to hold the belief you do, however.

  97. khandor Says:

    re: Sun Yue

    I could certainly see him starting for the Lakers sometime down-the-road.

    [not this year, however]

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